June 29, 2007

Name Order

Author is irate. People like me should be shot. (Or maybe I'm the lucky example with "mitigating factors".)

I'd like to know how he'd feel if he saw "Zedung Mao" in a news or historical article. Or "Chi Minh Ho".

Posted by: Steven Den Beste in System at 08:03 PM | Comments (11) | Add Comment
Post contains 42 words, total size 1 kb.

1 So, if you should travel to Japan, and have your name translated to Japanese, should you be called whatever the Japanese translation of "The Best Steven" would be?  Or is he saying it shouldn't be that way?

You know, I think I've got more important things in this world to get upset over than whether Japanese names should be in Western or Eastern style after translation into romaji.  Or translated at all.  I really don't care; It doesn't bother me. 

Except the time I met a Vietnamese named Phouc Long Duong.  Keeping a straight face was not easy.

Wait, did I have a point here?  Come to think of it, did the original author?


Posted by: ubu roi at June 29, 2007 09:09 PM (6Gqgi)

2 Another mystery solved!  I was wondering who author was...

Posted by: astro at June 29, 2007 09:17 PM (q4NkN)

3 It's a little weird. Japanese don't swap name order when they're talking about foreigners - they expect foreigners' names presented in their normal order, and specifically to mention if there's any confusion about which is which. (Sometimes you'll see a scene where somebody will introduce themselves to a non-Japanese person and indicate "call me X" right after saying their name.) They don't say "Washington George".

But the same's not true in the US - if you introduce someone to an American, you expect the name order to be given/family, and it would be weird to give it backwards and then say "X is the first name."

Usually swapping is the easiest way to prevent confusion, assuming you're writing for an English-language audience. The only time I didn't is when the show made a point of some characters swapping and some not - RahXephon had a couple of non-Japanese characters who'd address Ayato as "Ayato Kamina", instead of the usual other way around, for example.

Never confuse the reader if you don't have to. If you DO have to, have a good reason for having to! ;p

Posted by: Avatar_exADV at June 29, 2007 10:31 PM (dlP4b)

4

Two interesting examples from anime:

1. Vandread. Most of the characters in Vandread have non-Japanese names. Our hero is named "Hibiki Tokai" and that's the order he gives his name (e.g. in the second episode to Duero in the brig).

2. In Someday's Dreamers, when Yume first meets Angela, Yume tries to speak English to Angela and says, "My name is Yume Kikuchi."

That said, I've always done Japanese names surname first simply because that's what their names are. It always felt presumptuous for me to rearrange the order to fit what we in the West do.

(Though it's always felt wrong to do that with Yamamoto Maria, since she somehow or other ended up with a Western given name.)

Actually, my main opinion about this is that it's a tempest in a teacup.

[As to the identity of "Author", I've always known it. But it's not my secret to reveal, and it isn't yours either. He'll use his real name or not as he sees fit. It's not for any of us to make the decision to spoil his nom-de-blog for him by linking it to his real name someplace where the Google bot can find it. Which is my roundabout way of saying, Even if you think you know what it is, don't post it. Not here, and not anywhere.]

Posted by: Steven Den Beste at June 29, 2007 10:47 PM (+rSRq)

5 I'm inconsistent about it. Fortunately, so are the Japanese, so I don't worry about it too much. Which way they romanize a name seems to depend more on style than anything else. For instance, consider these two photobooks featuring (recently-kicked-out) Morning Musume member 藤本美貴 (Miki Fujimoto): Alo-Hello! and Cheri.

Customary usage seems to be "standard order" if the content is Japanese-style, "western order" if the content has an international flavor or is intended for export. Mangaka names seem to run about 50/50; for instance, Read or Die is westernized, Read or Dream is not.

-j

Posted by: J Greely at June 30, 2007 06:31 AM (2XtN5)

6

I think a large part of why we in the West seem to insist on (or instinctively use) given/family order is that we're more individual focused. The given name is what identifies the individual standing in front of you. The family name is for heritage and further clarification.

It may also have something to do with associating hearing our full-names growing up with being in a whole lot of trouble.

Posted by: Will at June 30, 2007 08:02 AM (olS40)

7 My driver's license reads "Surname, Givenname Middlename." Whom should I sue?

Posted by: Tatterdemalian at June 30, 2007 09:45 AM (DiEya)

8 Obviously Mr. Surname should be suing you for identity theft. What are you doing with his driver's license?

Posted by: Steven Den Beste at June 30, 2007 10:28 AM (+rSRq)

9 Groan.
Okay, Steven, I laughed. Happy now?

Posted by: Toren Smith at June 30, 2007 12:08 PM (hdEnp)

10 What's puzzling here is that Japanese names tend to get reversed, but other East Asian names are left as is. If an internationally-aware westerner is asked to name the current premier of China, he will answer "Hu Jintao" (family name first), and if he is asked to name the current prime minister of Japan, he will answer "Shinzo Abe" (given name first), because that's what he reads in the paper and hears on the news. The Japanese educational system may be responsible; this essay by a Japanese businessman seems to indicate that students learned to use given name-family name order when writing their names in romaji when he was in school.

Posted by: Andrew F. at June 30, 2007 12:22 PM (fhs/5)

11 One thing about this that strikes me as odd is that in the King of Fighters games, the name order for Chinese and Japanese characters seems to have one glaring exception--the Sakazaki characters.

In fact, for the Sakazakis, there seem to be two exceptions: not only are the names given name first, family name last, but when written in Japanese, they're written all in katakana.  I'd be interested in knowing what the backstory with that decision was.

Posted by: JR at June 30, 2007 02:56 PM (18Ppn)

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