So I decided to rewatch Tenchi Muyo GXP, and I'm three episodes in so far. It still works for me, though the early part of the series isn't as much fun as the later part. The last time I rewatched, I began with the episode that introduced Neige, but I'm going to watch it all this time.
One thing about this series that is a bit surprising is how many one-hit wonders there are in the cast. This is the only important role by the guy who did Seina, and quite frankly it isn't that good a performance. It's good enough so that it doesn't ruin the show, but he really doesn't make everything of the part that a better actor could have. So it makes sense that he isn't in the industry any more.
On the other hand, I thought that Seto's voice performer really was fantastic, but Seto is her only major anime part.
She was in two live-action Transformers movies according to ANN, so I wonder if she might have found other live acting work that isn't anime-related and wouldn't be on her ANN CV.
There have been other seiyuu I've encountered doing what I thought was outstanding work, who somehow didn't really score in the industry. It makes me wonder why. Sometimes I know, but a lot of them are utter mysteries.
Maybe they didn't like the pay and working conditions, and decided to look for other, better opportunities. I know that was what happened with the girl who did the voice of Yume in Someday's Dreamers. She started making movies.
Maybe they have a hard time delivering lines. Maybe the performances are good but they take an unacceptably large number of retakes to get them right. I've sometimes wondered if that was the case with Maria Yamamoto, who did the voices of CBD May and Yucie (in Petite Princess Yucie). Yucie, in particular, is an amazing performance.
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The Transformers roles would be the dub of the "main" character's mother, who (thankfully) only appears in a few scenes in each one.
Posted by: BigD at December 19, 2009 04:42 PM (LjWr8)
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I checked her on IMDB, and those are the only roles she's listed for. But I don't know if IMDB makes any attempt to list foreign films which don't get released in North America.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at December 19, 2009 05:02 PM (+rSRq)
3English Wikipedia lists a few more dubbing roles for her, mostly USAan acronym dramas (ER, CSI, JAG), plus a couple live roles. But it only lists about half of the minor anime roles that ANN has, so who knows how much work she's doing... Japanese Wikipedia (can't read it myself) has over 50 bullet points in what seems to be the "list of roles" section.
Posted by: Mikeski at December 19, 2009 05:15 PM (GbSQF)
I think it's amazing just how good some of the composers are that do music for anime. Just like everything else, Sturgeon's Law applies. But amongst the residual 10% that isn't crap, there's some damned fine work going on.
I'm a big fan of Tenchi Muyo GXP. It stands alone nicely as a series, and Nabeshin is just enough out of control to make it fun while being restrained enough to make it all work as a story and to make the characters engaging.
Once someone offered me a copy of the OST, but I refused it. (Thanks anyway, though.) Since, I've wondered whether I made a mistake. So what's a nice, self-respecting otaku to do? Easy: steal it.
I'm going to hell, aren't I?
I just downloaded it. I don't listen to music very often any more, but I rather enjoyed going through all these. They brought back a lot of memories. Maybe I should watch the series again.
There are two which I consider real favorites. 03 is labeled "teiwa no gogo". If that means anything at all, it means "Afternoon of the Teiwa era" which I doubt. I'm beginning to understand why folks don't like romaji; it's tough to work things out. Especially when they botch up word boundaries. I'm guessing that's tei wa and that it's 弟 "pupil". So it would be "The pupil's afternoon."
My other favorite is 22, "tandemu doraibu" e.g. Tandem Drive.
One game I like to play when listening to the anime soundtrack music is to try to decide what genre and form I'd categorize a particular song, just because it's fun to try to figure out what kinds of musical genres the composers have studied. Kanno Yoko is justly famous for her jazz; it sounds like it's right out of Mississippi.
There are three pieces in TM:GXP that I think I would categorize as tangos. 07 is labeled "ichizu na kanjou". It's another case where I wish I could see the kanji. ichizu means "wholeheartedly. kanjou means "feelings" but I wonder if it's really supposed to be kanojo. Regardless, I can't figure it out because of na. That could be "seven" or "reputation" or "I" or "you", and none of 'em make any sense. And I don't believe that it's an emphasis particle. Anyway, the time meter is 3:3:3:3:2:2 and that's right out of tango territory. And I can't really remember for sure, but I think this might be Kiriko's theme.
12 is labeled "granceful pirate", clearly a typo of Graceful Pirate. It's definitely Ryoko's theme. The meter is 3:3:2.
15 is labeled "Amane the Prompter", so it's obviously Amane's theme. That one is also 3:3:2.
Given how sensuous the tango is, plus the popular wisdom that it takes (exactly) two to tango, I rather like the idea of all three of them having tangos as their themes. It can't be accidental, and that's the main reason I think 07 is Kiriko's theme. But I'll have to check the series to make sure.
Moving right along, 11 is definitely not a tango. To anyone who's seen the series it's instantly recognizable as Seto's theme. It plays in the second episode when Seto's ship shows up for the first time. It sounds to me like it's supposed to be music from India. The nominal title is ju kaminari no onihime.
onihime means "demon princess" and Seto is known in the series as jurai no onihime "The demon princess of Jurai". It looks like 呪 ju means "curse". 雷 kaminari is "thunder". So I'm going to take a wild stab and say it means "The thunderous curse of the demon princess".
There were other influences I heard, too. I also kind of wonder about the labeling. Track 35 is labeled otome which means "virgin", but when I heard it I thought it was Fuku's theme.
A different game I play is to try to figure out whether they're doing everything on a synth, or whether some of the voices are real instruments. Of course, given the kind of budgets they usually have to work with, most of the music if not all will be done on a synth. But sometimes solo instruments will be live.
Track 05 is a good example. There's a lot of guitar music going on in this, but not even Segovia could play parts of that on a real guitar; clearly it's someone using a keyboard. On the other hand, no synth can do that fiddle playing. That's a real instrument.
There's quite a lot of fiddle playing on this album, and it makes me wonder if the composer himself is the fiddle player. That's not uncommon. He's done a lot of other sound tracks, but not really any others I've paid much attention to, so I can't really know for sure.
Anyway, just to be complete, track 05 is labeled sasai no uragiri "the perfidy of the trivial" and I don't remember when it's used. Is that Seiryo's theme?
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Hmm. I'm not sure about the teiwa thing, but I would suspect that it actually is "Teiwa era." The grammar would be weird if it were pupil.
The na is something that gets added to one class of adjectives in Japanese. For instance shizuka means quiet, and heya means room, but it's "shizuka na heya" if you want to say "quiet room." In English these are often called na adjectives for this reason.
I know what you mean about the kanji making things easier though. Particularly in cases like the names of special attacks in shounen shows where they're using the Chinese readings in a really abbreviated fashion it can be hard to figure out what they mean unless you're a native speaker (and maybe even then in some cases.)
Posted by: tds at December 14, 2009 11:54 AM (JzDCT)
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Looks like it's a typo. Amazon.co.jp has it as 平和な午後, "heiwa no gogo" = "peaceful afternoon" in their track list.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at December 14, 2009 02:29 PM (fpXGN)
Posted by: J Greely at December 14, 2009 02:32 PM (fpXGN)
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This reminds me about "towa no hana" vs. "eien no hana". The first is used in every printed word (even furigana on CD), but lyrics contain the second.
Posted by: Pete Zaitcev at December 14, 2009 05:48 PM (/ppBw)
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I'm sure I still have that extra CD around here somewhere, but I've moved since then. God only knows where it may have ended up. Now you've got me itching to dig it up. It makes pretty good background noise when you're working around the house/apartment. There's also some good accordion (yes, there is such a thing) sampling on that CD.
Posted by: Will at December 14, 2009 10:33 PM (9dEae)
Tenchi Muyo GXP -- The Lorelei and the Diplomat
Ubu and I have been having a conversation in his comments here about the ending of Tenchi Muyo: GXP. In one of my comments I touched on something I'd thought of before, and wanted to expand on it here. It's all spoilers, so it's below the fold.
more...
Interesting hypothesis, though that probably is more than what Masaki Kajishima thought about the topic.
Not to mention the whole
Tenchi Masaki is the god of the current dimension and more, which would probably do more to unify the universe (There are interesting ideas in the TM fandon about who Seto is, but she is definitely not a goddess like the Three Sisters (Washu, Tsunami, and Tokimi), let alone the big god of them all (Tenchi).[/spoiler]
C.T.
Posted by: cxt217 at January 25, 2009 08:51 PM (ypRP3)
He didn't write GXP. Nabeshin wrote it. And there are hints that he did think about some of these things.
At one point near the end of the series, Seto, Airi, and Kuramitsu Mikami are all having tea together in Airi's office. (I think Seto and Mikami were playing go.) And Airi says something like, "Suddenly the goal of uniting the galaxy is in reach." And the other two nod in agreement.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 25, 2009 09:06 PM (+rSRq)
Nabeshin may have written the script, but the plotline was probably given to him by Kajishima and Yosuke Kuroda (That was similar to how Kuroda did script work on the original TMR series - the plot and much of scriptwork was already done by the time the writers came onboard.).
There is also the fact that:
what Tsunami would be willing to let Seto do regarding Jurain politics, since Tsunami is merged with Sasami. Given that the power of Jurai essentially comes from Tsunami, Tenchi being less of a factor than Seina or Seta, for that matter, is inconceivable. That is not even including Washu or Tokimi in the mix.
C.T.
Posted by: cxt217 at January 25, 2009 09:26 PM (ypRP3)
I just don't see the TM people interfering as much as you do, or really giving much of a damn. And even if they did, I can't see them objecting to Seto's program. Why would they?
She's trying to unite the galaxy peacefully, through diplomacy. What's wrong with that?
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 25, 2009 10:18 PM (+rSRq)
5 The only way I could see it mattering, is if one of the various cosmics decided to solve the piracy problem more directly. However, only someone on the level of the Chousein or higher could do so by simply snapping their fingers, and I don't think any of them *do* that kind of thing ( or in Tenchi's case, likely doesn't know how anyway ).
Posted by: metaphysician at January 25, 2009 10:28 PM (h4nEy)
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I don't even see Tenchi & the 3 Sisters being on the same level as Seina & co.
Their concern is the meta-universe and higher dimensions, although arguably Tenchi's not there yet -- but he's part of their plan. Seina and his group operate on the "nuts & bolts" level of making Jurai work and keeping order in our galaxy. There's a small amount of overlap, but not much.
Anyway, one of the corollaries that I alluded to in the other discussion is that
diplomatic marriages between Seina and various women in other empires are a possibility; there's terrestrial precedent for such polygamy (happened at tribal levels I think? Or China?) Of course some of them might be marriages in name only, but I could definitely see Seto using that as a part of the alliance strategy. Poor Seina; it may be in his destiny to have 100 wives....Neige should advise him to resign the succession and head for deep space! . Makes you wonder if his luck changed or not.
Posted by: ubu at January 25, 2009 11:06 PM (aztRh)
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The chances of Tenchi and company getting as power players are slim to none, largely because they generally don't care.
Washu, in her role as Fuku's mother, might help out from time to time, and it seems she's become friends with Seto so something might come of that. Mihoshi is Mihoshi and thus unpredictable, but if she gets involved it probably won't be deep. Tsunami is just watching out for Jurai, as per her bargain with them. Tokimi is still operating on her usual level, which is far too lofty to find empire and piracy important. Most important, however, I can say that if the Choushin cared about getting rid of space pirates, the space pirates would be gone. People at their level of power in this setting have been known to destroy whole interstellar civilizations as collateral damage.
Seto, on the other hand, is passionate about this. She likes political moving and shaking (possibly even for its own sake), and a unified galactic federation would give her a bigger sandbox to play in if nothing else. She also has a deep and abiding hatred of space pirates for personal reasons. She has plenty of reasons to want the sort of things Steven is writing about here, she's the kind to go after it, and since he can make it happen, Seina is a dream come true for her.
( Idly, who else would want to see Seto and Seina take a boat trip off the coast of Somalia? )
Posted by: Xivilai at January 26, 2009 12:13 PM (IQij+)
Washu is interested in Seina.
She's interested in anyone for whom the normal rules don't apply. That's why she likes having Mihoshi around; Mihoshi is another for whom the rules don't apply. Washu would probably like to study Mitoto, too, but Mitoto's positional uncertainty makes her difficult to observe.
It's part of her particular approach to the search for a superior one. Just because she finally found him (Tenchi) doesn't change her interest in looking at others for who the rules don't work, and it's likely she's been watching Seina for a long time.
When Seto came to Washu to beg her for a ship which could survive having Seina as its captain, I think she was already inclined to help. Partly that was because Seina was Tenchi's friend, and partly it was because she's not unsympathetic to Seto's grand plan to unite the galaxy. But I do think it was mostly because Seina is one of those rare and (to Seto) extremely valuable people for whom cause-and-effect doesn't fully apply, and she wants to study him and to make his power fully blossom.
Of the people in that household, Washu is the one who will be most involved with what Seina is doing. I have a suspicion that she's getting regular telemetry from Fuku. (She gets that from Ryoko and Ryo-Ohki, and it seems like the kind of thing she'd include in Fuku too.)
But I don't think she'll interfere, beyond her already great interference in giving Fuku to Seina.
I also think that there's going to be a great deal of quiet pride for her in having Fuku be a major contributor to the unification of the galaxy. Seina couldn't do what he's been doing without Fuku, and everyone knows it.
Everyone else in that household knows Seina and likes him. I simply can't see any of them getting involved to derail the project or to interfere with Seina's career.
(I'm not sure that Mihoshi knows him. But Mihoshi knows Amane, and she's a loyal member of the GP. She isn't going to consciously impede Seina and his team as they carry out the greatest and most glorious single project in GP history. (What she does unconsciously, on the other hand, is anyone's guess.)
As to Tsunami? Her approach to the search was to engage in breeding experiments with the Masaki lineage. Her means to do that was via her control over her offspring trees. The Masaki clan judges the importance of members based on the rank of tree that they get (or the fact that they don't get one) and ultimately it's been Tsunami who has been making that decision. So, for instance, she gave Yosho a first generation tree, because she judged his lineage to be the one available to her most likely to yield what she was looking for. (Which is what happened.)
Anyway, Tsunami herself doesn't really have any interest in Seina one way or the other. As observed by others, "fighting pirates" and "uniting the galaxy" are unimportant details for her.
But Sasami likes Seina and that's a good enough reason to help him out. So when Kiriko went in for a tree selection, Tsunami gave her a 2nd generation tree, knowing it would be used to help Seina in his quest.
It's an interesting question whether Tsunami expected Seina to find the Statue, and whether she commanded it to accept him as its master once he did. I'm inclined to say "no" and "yes" respectively, but I sure can't prove either of those.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 26, 2009 01:42 PM (+rSRq)
I should note that people who have taken a look at the GXP novels Kajishima did have noted there is a lot less Nabeshin in them - not unexpected, since he apparently came into the production after it was well under way.
As for:
The idea that Tenchi and company will not be involved because they are not interested, consider that Yosho has essentially been grooming Tenchi as his replacement as the next in line to the throne. While Tenchi has demonstrated no interest in power per see, he has demonstrated that he is very responsible. I doubt if he gets to feel he has to be the next emperor of Jurai, he will (Given that Tenchi and most, if not all, of the girls eventually go to Jurai, that is not an inconsiderable hint about where this will go.). Also that Tenchi is the current subject of a potential political marriage (The first of...well, we do not know.) is also something to consider.
Also, technically Tsunami's bargain with Jurai comes to conclusion when she found Tenchi as the power she and her sisters were looking for. Anything else beyond that point is entirely up to her own will, which granted is inclined toward continuing the bargain.
Furthermore, Washu has manipulated the galactic politics toward her desired viewpoint before. See Galactic Academy - Origins of:. It is not a stretch that if she feels she has to, that she will do it again.
Posted by: cxt217 at January 26, 2009 05:04 PM (ypRP3)
I didn't realize there were any novels. Were those written before or after the anime was created? I've always assumed that TM:GXP was created out of whole cloth by the anime development team, primarily led by Nabeshin.
Whose fingerprints are all over the story, if you know what he's like. It's clearly his show, even if it is placed in a situation created by someone else.
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 26, 2009 05:38 PM (+rSRq)
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GXP is has Nabeshin's fingerprints all over the place, yes, and it's mostly good. (Less good with NB, but honestly, I like Nabeshin's work enough not to mind his self-inserts too much). Kajishima has lots of interesting ideas, but he doesn't seem to have a lot of literary focus and sometimes seems to go off on tangents. Nabeshin's presence took care of that problem, giving GXP lots of coherence and an excellent, consistent pace. ( After having seen Excel Saga, seeing Nabeshin as the bringer of coherence is a bit of a shock, but there you go. ) This may be different in the novels, but I can't know because they will probably never be seen in English. Translating novels is said to be an entirely different beast from translating anime or manga, and nobody's yet made an attempt at the three novels Kajishima wrote fleshing out the Tenchiverse ages ago now. As for before or after; the first was written after the show ended, and more are still being produced. There seems to be a lot of elucidation and extra material in there, which is good because Seina didn't have a weird enough life already. Poor guy.
Now, to complicate the question of whether the Tenchi crew will get involved or not - I still lean towards 'not' myself, if for no other reason than Tenchi will no doubt have his own problems and most of the girls will be more interested in helping him than Seina. But both Washu and Tsunami have been spending a great deal of time among mortals, and even as mortals. This has humanized them, shifting their perspective and the nature of their concerns; now they care about things other than the big existential crisis they had however many billion years ago. For isntance, Tsunami is likely to continue aiding Jurai even after getting what she wants, which has stopped being a small pirate clan she made a bargain with millenia ago and has become her home and family. It's also interesting to note the places where Tsunami's experiment crosses over with Washu's. Yosho is one of these, since for the last few hundred years he hasn't technically had a royal tree - Funaho has become powerless and is living off of Washu's gems. Another might be Seto, but while that would make sense of a few things it's just speculation for now. As for Washu getting involved in politics, there's this, which the mighty can look upon when they feel the need to despair. http://www.oni-hime.com/novels/gxp_novel_4/images/GXP4-9.JPG (No, I don't know how to post image links. Apologies. )
Some of these things will probably be looked at in Seikishi Monogatari, an upcoming anime focusing on Tenchi's half-brother, who is still being carried by Katsuhito's new wife as of GXP episode 17. It'll be interesting to see - if we get to - how Tenchi and Seina have changed in the intervening decade or so.
Posted by: Xivilai at January 26, 2009 09:03 PM (IQij+)
The way I heard it, the brother gets whisked away to an alternate reality in the first episode and never comes back. Any appearance by established characters will be minimal at best, just cameos at the beginning.
I'm sure that new series is going to reek.
(Which brings us full circle, because it was Ubu's post about the new series which inspired his post about GXP, and then mine.)
Posted by: Steven Den Beste at January 26, 2009 09:09 PM (+rSRq)
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Xivali: do I understand you to mean one or more of the novels shed light on Seina's situation, or are they all about Tenchi? If the former, can you add anything to what we know?
Posted by: ubu at January 27, 2009 07:20 AM (i7ZAU)
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Ubu: The GXP novels are likely to shed light on Seina's situation; after four of them, Seina hasn't even gotten his first command yet, so there's lots more being packed in there than in the anime. I don't know how densely packed they are (they're coming out pretty quickly, so I'm assuming 'light novels'), but I'm guessing there's lots of exposition coming in there. I don't actually know much of anything about the GXP novels, mind, because I can't read Japanese yet - all I have to go on is material from other fans. Well, that and scans of the interior illustrations. As a note, none of the novels have been about Tenchi himself to date. The GXP novels are about Our Man Seina (of course), and the others are about the pasts of Azusa, Yosho, and Washu, respectively.
Posted by: Xivilai at January 27, 2009 07:06 PM (IQij+)
Kajishima himself might have problems focusing any any particular set of ideas, but he has been (From interviews he has done.) working on the story for TMR for the better part of a decade before he started the first one. So I think he has a lot of the background material down pat.
For that matter, all of his non-hentai (He has at least two hentai titles to his credit, besides the NSFW stuff he has in his doujinshi.) work since TMR OVA 1 has been done with Yosuke Kuroda, who is very prominent in anime now. If Kajishima lacks certain focus, Kuroda certainly does not - I doubt they or AIC needed Nabeshin to get any more focus with GXP, all the more so since Nabeshin was not part of the production at the start.
C.T.
Posted by: cxt217 at January 27, 2009 08:13 PM (ypRP3)
The engrish and page structure are sketchy, but functionally it works as a translation. You just have to be willing to absorb the novels out of order from the original text. It's no professional translation, but it's better than nothing.
Posted by: Will at January 28, 2009 01:35 PM (WnBa/)
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Will: Actually, I've been aware of Tatsumingo's translation for some time now, but from what I hear it's more a summary than a depth translation of the books. But you're right; it definitely is better than nothing. ( Thanks for the link anyway, mind - if I hadn't already read it, it'd be hog heaven for me. )
Posted by: Xivilai at January 29, 2009 06:23 AM (IQij+)
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Will: thanks for linking it... good stuff; it explains some of Ryoko's background too, and some scenes I'd seen of the first OVA series but not understood at the time (Tusnami and Sasami's merger, for instance, and why I thought she was merged with a tree, rather than one of the 3 sisters.)
Posted by: ubu at January 29, 2009 11:09 AM (i7ZAU)
Tenchi Muyo GXP -- families
At the end of the second-to-last episode of Tenchi Muyo GXP there's an interesting collection of characters all in one place. Seeing it, and talking about it, are serious spoilers about the series ending so it goes below the fold.
more...
Later in the series, after Seina has seriously hurt the DaRuma pirate guild, the pirates decide to try fighting fire with fire. If Seina is so effective as a pirate hunter because of his jinx, his legendary "bad luck", then the pirates will try to counter that with good luck.
They create what they call the "Good Luck Fleet". It consists of pirate ships which are packed to the gills with good luck charms of various kinds. I wish I understood what they all are; it looks like Nabeshin was using it as a way of having a laugh at the expense of Japanese superstitions.
Some of them I do know about. There's the pawing cat, for instance. And there's tea with a stem floating vertically in it. They also seem to be plastering this kanji:
寿
all over everything. It means "congratulations!" or "long life!"
So here's a couple of frame grabs of the bridge of one of the pirate "Good Luck" ships. How many traditional Japanese good luck charms can you identify and name?
For instance, what's the deal with the crayfish? Or those weird pieces of bamboo?
Honorifics and pronoun usage in Japanese is a really big deal in anime. It's subtle but can express lots of stuff, and it's damned near impossible to translate. I just stumbled on a couple of articles on the Tropes page: honorificspronouns
You ask the linguists, they'll tell you that Japanese doesn't have pronouns. Yet anywhere you look you'll find really long lists of them. I finally figured out what's going on: those words in Japanese are actually terms which have come to be used as place holders. It's like addressing someone as "turkey" or "babe" or "jerk" or "bastard" or "sweetie" or "dude". You can use those kinds of words in English in place of "you" (often with minor grammatical reconstruction of the sentence) and we commonly do, but those words are not pronouns. And neither are all the Japanese words we're talking about. But since Japanese doesn't have real pronouns, it's usual among everyone who isn't anal to use the term to refer to this long list of such words which are sort of used that way but which aren't real pronouns.
That's why Japanese "pronouns" are so expressive of attitude: nearly all of them were originally either insults or compliments. (Though it's often the case that the original meaning has been subverted, probably through sarcasam.)
In the honorifics list it says that -dono rates slightly higher than -sama. Is that really true?
Originally "Lord," in the feudal sense. A step higher than -sama, and conferring the highest possible respect. Unlike -sama, however, it doesn't necessarily imply lower status on the part of the speaker, and is a face-saving way for high-ranking jidai geki characters to address others of high rank.
I've come to think of "dono" as translating pretty well as "your excellency", with "sama" translating as "milord" or "milady". But maybe I'm wrong about that, because in traditional usage "your excellency" would rank lower than "milord". Ambassadors would be addressed as "your excellency", for example, even if they were not nobility.
The third episode of Tenchi Muyo: GXP has a critical scene between Seina and Seto. Seto is the Jurai no oni hime (the "demon princess of Jurai"), a big-time political operator, and power behind the throne. Real big-time person, and everyone always refers to her as -sama. (Except, if I recall correctly, Mikami sometimes, who is also nearly the only person in the Tenchiverse to not be even slightly intimidated by Seto. But then, Mikami is effectively the head of the Kuramitsu clan, so at the very least she's looking across level at Seto, if not somewhat down. Anyway, they're friends.)
Seto invariably uses -dono to refer to Seina, and so do all her subordinates. (Well, except in some of the ero-roleplaying situations, but that's a subversion.) I suspect that's the first time in his life that anyone has used dono with Seina, and I really expected him to be embarrassed by it, especially when coming from someone like Seto. But that doesn't happen, and I don't quite understand why. I guess it means I'm still not really up on the fine points.
Since it shows up so early in the series, and is so key to the overall story, it isn't really a spoiler: the point of that interview is that Seto wants to make sure that Seina really wants to join the GP. The nominal problem is that there's a law against taking people from planets too primitive to have developed starflight into space, let alone letting them enter the GP. It is possible to grant a waiver to that law, and Seto eventually offers to use her influence to get such a waiver granted. But she tries to impress on Seina just what it means for him: entering the GP will be dangerous for him.
He thinks about it before answering. It's a very genuine scene. Kanemitsu (one of Seto's aides) is there and thinks that Seto is putting one over on Seina, but he's wrong. Seina really, genuinely, thinks about it, and makes a decision. And he never regrets having made it and never reconsiders it for the entire rest of the series. (That's one of the reasons that Seina comes off as an admirable character, and part of why the series works.)
Seto puts it to him, perhaps a bit harshly. What do you want to do?
He responds, "I want to stay here" -- and he uses ore. Virtually always in the series he uses boku. Under the circumstances (speaking with someone as distinguished as Seto) I would think that would be considered grossly rude. But I think the implication was supposed to be that it was an indication that the boy had become a man in that instant.
I like the fact that translators are starting to bring the honorifics through in the subtitles, by the way. But there's no real way for them to bring the subtleties of pronoun use through to the same extent, so a lot of flavor gets lost if you don't listen closely and pick up the usage. That use of ore instead of boku doesn't come through at all; there's no way it could without a big footnote.
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Jay Rubin makes extensive use of the concept of the "zero pronoun" in his (very accessible) book Making Sense of Japanese, arguing that it's the only true pronoun in Japanese, and everything else is only used when the shared context between speaker and listener is insufficient. Conveying your attitude towards someone is an obvious use of that. An excellent example is in Ai Yori Aoshi, where Miyabi always refers to herself formally as "watakushi".
She also refers to the main characters as Kaoru-dono and Aoi-sama. From her point of view, Aoi is a high-status member of her in-group, while Kaoru is an equally-high-status member of an outside family, and must be honored. (see the Wikipedia entry on uchi/soto)
In modern Japanese, -sama is probably the victim of genericide, since it's the suffix of choice for honoring anyone outside your in-group who doesn't merit a more specific title, like -sensei. And, of course, in stores, where every customer is o-kyaku-sama.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at April 11, 2008 06:37 PM (2XtN5)
Honorifics are a perfect example of a translation problem with no good solution. I reluctantly agree putting them in untranslated is the best solution in many cases, but the problem (as noted above) is that the non-Japanese readers only have a vague idea of what they imply (as much as many of the otaku, with their near-infinite knowledge of Japanese culture, would like to believe otherwise).
As I said, no real solution...except learn as you go, I suppose. And there are times they're really not required. Off the top of my head--I saw no need for them when I was doing Narutaru (Shadow Star).
j, I have to say that in 25 years of visiting and living in Japan, I've only heard one person referred to as "Naninani-sama" non-ironically (at least, outside the otaku community). It seems pretty rare on the ground in real-world conversation.
Rubin's book is excellent, highly recommended.
Posted by: Toren at April 11, 2008 07:15 PM (4NJ4h)
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As always, I defer to someone who's spent more than two weeks in Japan. I heard a few -sama's in that trip, outside of an otaku context, but I could easily have missed irony or other context. Spoken Japanese at a natural pace can go past me in a blur, especially if I'm just overhearing someone else's conversations.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at April 11, 2008 07:22 PM (2XtN5)
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...come to think of it, most of the occasions during that trip where I was in a position to clearly hear random people speaking Japanese were either at temples and shrines or on late-night television.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at April 11, 2008 07:54 PM (2XtN5)
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I can not claim the knowledge of anyone else here, but on at least one occasion the ore/boku dichotomy was somewhat thrown in my face by Code Geass. In relation to Suzuku, Lelouche recalled a point after which Suzuku changed how he referred to himself. Whether he changed from ore to boku or vice versa, I'm not certain but it was a turning point in his life. What it meant was completely lost on me, other than context.
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There was a similar incident in ZOE TV, where the (generally unprepossessing) son decided "to hell with it" and started calling himself "ore", then caught flack from his sister for it.
That really is a translation problem with no clear or easy solution. I don't LIKE leaving in suffixes, honestly, because they're not really adding information to the viewer. On the other hand, when Kagami suggests that Konata call her "Kagami-sama"... and Konata does... it's like... if you don't use the honorific, what the hell DO you do?
But my objection is purely from the perspective of a subtitler, where screen real estate is valuable and not to be used casually. ;p
Unfortunately, "-kakka" translates to "your excellency", so "-dono" doesn't. (Most of the time that I've seen it, it's referring to Meiji-era nobility, or European nobility, or European-derived nobility such as in CotS. I get the feeling that it was one of those tacked-on facets of the system...) As you say, it has specific conditions for usage, where -sama is purely relational.
Posted by: Avatar_exADV at April 11, 2008 09:45 PM (d2LNE)
One of the first things I had to learn when I was in Japan is never use anything you learned off anime, manga, or TV (except the NHK) as a template for conversational Japanese. Right after that came "don't learn how to speak colloquial Japanese by listening to anyone other than your same sex and age group."
People there do good-naturedly tease me sometimes for my quasi-keigo Japanese, but I'd rather be teased for that than sounding like an anime character or a girl. One American fan I met at the Comic Market a few years ago was adequately fluent, and amazingly had avoided picking up too much "anime-speak," but was talking like a middle-aged woman (it was especially grating to hear him constantly using "Ara maa"). I finally took him aside and had a quiet word, but I suspect his habits will be hard to break. As Frederik Schodt warned me 25 years ago, you have to be careful what you learn because "practice makes permanent."
j is right, -sama does show up in certain specific places but just not very damn often in your average conversation between normal people. Late night TV is excellent listening practice, but not a good place to learn snappy new phrases. :-D
Oddly enough, the very first manga I worked on, The Legend of Kamui, threw me into the deep end on what to do about honorifics. It's a ninja jidai-geki and honorifics are really important. I asked Viz if I could use them, and put in a glossary, but they refused. So I certainly don't 100% object to the use of them, just when it doesn't add more to the understanding of the story that it takes away. And it's nothing compared to the random use of bleeding chunks of Japanese that scanslators somethings throw in--like "baka"--so that the otaku can feel like they can read Japanese. Those really grate.
I'd never given much thought to the honorifics problem with regard to screen real estate. I've only worked on subtitles for a few movies (eg. Urusei Yatsura 2: Beautiful Dreamer, Venus Wars, Ghost in the Shell, and the first version of Royal Space Force --none of which needed honorifics at all) and I was never given any concrete limitations, so I just winged it based on gut feel and looking at other subtitled movies. Any editing needed was done by the subtitling house. But I can see how honorifics could really stack up and take space better used for a more fluid translation.
Posted by: Toren at April 12, 2008 02:46 PM (Zvalr)
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Myself, I'm not too worried about any of that stuff because I don't ever expect to learn enough Japanese to be able to converse in it, and I don't expect to ever be in a situation where I'd want to, anyway. Such unstructured study of Japanese as I've done has been entirely in service of my hobby of watching anime -- so study of how Japanese is used in anime is the ideal source material.
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I'm trying to be careful what I pick up, because in all of my classes we've only had two male native speakers, and one of them was flamboyantly gay. We almost got a tutor who had graduated from NHK broadcast school, but she had to return to Japan due to a health problem.
Not that I don't enjoy the presence of female tutors...
I found late-night television quite useful for listening practice, particularly trying to pick up enough to explain what was going on to my friend. Sadly, my skill was insufficient to explain Macha-Macha's antics in a cooking show.
-j
Posted by: J Greely at April 12, 2008 10:00 PM (2XtN5)
It really amazes me just how well Tenchi Muyo: GXP stands up to rewatching. As a series, it's grown on me over time. When I first watched it and finished it, I thought that the characters weren't very deep, and the story not very engaging, and the main point was fan service and jokes. But as time has gone on it has seized my imagination in ways I never expected. And the characters have become more interesting to me.
I looked at Chris Beveridge's review of the series. When he originally reviewed it in 2004, he gave it a moderately positive score. But when the thinpak came out, and he rewatched it, and re-reviewed it (SPOILERS), he said this:
Directed by Shinichi Watanabe, Tenchi Muyo Galaxy Police Transporter is a twenty six episode series that has actually become my favorite Tenchi show out of all of them. Surpassing my love and nostalgia for the original six episode OVA series, the GXP series simply gets it right from start to finish by having a whole lot of fun, managing all the characters quite well and really playing up the sexy fanservice in a way that just clicks perfectly. The original release by FUNimation was awkward if only because of its release schedule across eight discs but seeing it in the space of three days in this Viridian Collection edition has truly solidified its position in my show rankings of the Tenchiverse.
That was last December, and Chris had seen everything else in the "Tenchiverse", including Tenchi in Tokyo,Magical Project S, Magical Girl Pretty Sammy, and of course all three Tenchi Muyo: Ryo Ohki OVAs, not to mention sundry movies.
I haven't seen anything besides GXP and the original Ryo Ohki OVAs, but I agree that GXP is my favorite of the series. And like Chris, I find that it gets better as time passes and as I rewatch it. There are a lot of series for which the first viewing is the best, and if they're even worth rewatching at all, subsequent rewatches are a pale experience by comparison. I'm not sure I can think of a series where the series improves so much with subsequent rewatches the way this one does.
A couple of days ago I increased my rating of the series from 3 stars to 3.5. And I confess that I was tempted to bring it all the way up to 4, but I couldn't justify it to myself. (There are some flaws in the series, enough so that it really doesn't quite rate a full 4.)
That said, in terms of simple enjoyment, it's done a lot better for me than some series I did give 4 stars to.
I'm also strongly tempted to put it in my "top 5 recommended list", replacing Angelic Layer, but I just can't bring myself to do so. That's because harem shows by their nature don't tend to appeal to broad audiences, and that list is supposed to be "things I'd recommend to almost anyone".
Ubu recently sent me a link to this post I made about the series just after I finished watching it the first time. And now I disagree with it in a lot of ways.
Tenchi Muyo GXP is a pleasant show, a comfortable show to watch, and really quite an entertaining show. But it doesn't really engage you. It doesn't seize your imagination. It doesn't pull you in. Nabeshin wants to make you laugh, but he doesn't want to make you cry, or be frightened, or be concerned, or to worry. If you get too involved in the story or the characters, those things start happening, and I've come to believe he was consciously trying to prevent that. I think he could have made the characters more engaging, and deliberately didn't, because that's not the kind of series he decided to make.
And now it does engage me. Now it does pull me in. Now the characters are more real to me. Now it does seize my imagination. And now I no longer believe Nabeshin was trying to prevent that.
I think that in the end I wanted to care more about the characters than Nabeshin wanted me to. That's why I found the ending disappointing. I wanted resolution of character development arcs. Nabeshin wanted to tell jokes.
And now I don't find the ending disappointing, but that's because I understand it better. It is a resolution of the character development arcs; it's not just about jokes -- though it is hilarious, especially once you come to understand the characters better.
There came a point, maybe three quarters of the way through the series, when I started getting tired of Seto-sama's machinations. She stopped being a plausible character and started being Nabeshin's way of controlling the story rails.
And this is where I've changed my mind the most, because now I understand what Seto is doing. Fact is, she's one of my favorite characters, and now that I understand her real goal -- and it's a good one -- it's become clear to me that everything she does to Seina, and with Seina, is indeed consistent. She isn't just a personification of deus ex machina, or a way for Nabeshin to control the story.
Once I figured out Seto's real goal, the real game she's playing, and the way Seina fits into her plans, a lot else became clear to me. Now for me the ending is not contrived. It is inevitable. And that's part of why it works better for me now.
I think my first reaction to the ending was that it had the same disconnect with the rest of the story as the ending of Maburaho did. It felt like something stupid tacked on at the end just in order to be humorous. But now I understand that it is in fact exactly where the story was aiming all the way from the first episode.
Nabeshin has blown me away; this is amazingly high quality story telling. He never misses a beat, all the way through the series.
And because of that, he's giving me a headache, and a tummy ache. There's a series which is being released here in R1 under the title "The Wallflower". In Japanese, it was called Yamato Nadeshiko Shichihenge, and it's been on my list of "series I'll never watch" mainly because it features four bishies (bishounen, "pretty boys").
Recently I noticed that Nabeshin directed it. And I read somewhere that part of what he does is to make fun of the bishounen esthetic. The bishies are a target of his comedic ire.
So now I'm finding myself to be simultaneously tempted and revolted. I really hate watching bishies -- but I think I might like watching Nabeshin skewer them. Oh, sigh...
Two DVDs of the series are out now. The third will appear whenever ADV gets its act together, if it does, and assuming ADV doesn't die first. As to the other three (? given that it's a 25-ep series) it's anyone's guess.
Anyone know anything about the series? How awful are the bishies? Is there really 25 episodes worth of story and jokes in this concept?
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I watched the first episode when it came out, but at the same time I found it funny, I couldn't stand it. If you are in the slightest homophobic, the creepiness factor will get you, even though the four are far less "homo-side characters" than the twins from Ouran.
From that episode, I couldn't tell much; the guys were all shallow and self-centered in the first episode (to be expected; they're lazy bums and are only helping the girl to get free rent) BasuGasuBakuhatsu had far more than my one paltry paragraph on it.
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It's not bishounen, except in the Dada or surrealist sense. It's not horror or romance either, except all those genres are mashed up in the anime and the manga. The anime is close to a subset of the manga, so I suggest that you buy a couple of the manga and see if you like it. Don't look for a plot - it is a story of (strange) manners.
The character development mostly takes place with the secondary characters.
The above is certainly obscure enough to avoid the dreaded spoilers tag.
Posted by: conrad at April 07, 2008 04:02 PM (MDfbw)
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I found the manga mediocre with flashes of brilliance. It helps a lot if you're familiar with the Japanese horror that it's parodying - though she's as fond of Freddy as of Sadako, she only resembles the latter. Every so often she's coaxed out of her shell, much like a depleted uranium round discards a sabot, and with virtually the same effect.
I'm interested, but only enough to bum it off a friend. ;p
Posted by: Avatar_exADV at April 07, 2008 05:22 PM (LMDdY)
Nabeshin got to create his own characters and write his own story about them in TM:GXP. If he was stuck adapting a manga in Wallflower, it might not be as good.
Most of what he did got passed by the original mangaka to make sure he didn't disrupt continuity too badly, but that wasn't much of a constraint.
I think it's pretty clear that Nabeshin created Kiriko and Kai, Seina and his family, Amane, Ryoko, and Neige pretty much from scratch. I have a suspicion that Airi and Seto were borrowed from the original continuity, but that mainly what he got was how they look and how they fit into the Jurai family tree. I'd bet that their characters as such, in terms of how they behave, were mostly created by him.
Seina and his harem are clearly a re-imagining of Tenchi and his harem, of course. But the difference is that Nabeshin got it right. (He also got the ending right, the "which one will Seina pick" aspect of it in particular.)
Seems like Tenchi GXP has inspired the opposite of a refrigerator moment. Instead of realizing how flawed the story is after a trip to the refrigerator, you realize that what looked like a flawed story was actually much better than you thought.
What would that be called?
Posted by: Tatterdemalian at April 07, 2008 08:22 PM (j8zCH)
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Nabeshin's fault? Heck, maybe that's what Nabeshin was trying for all along, to make a series that makes its audience go, "Hey, wait a minute..." and go back to watch it again and again.
Posted by: Tatterdemalian at April 08, 2008 04:20 AM (j8zCH)
Hmm. GXP has been sitting unwatched on my shelf for quite a while. Maybe I'll crack it open tonight and have a look.
After slogging through KoiKoi7 over the last few days, I deserve a break. I kept hoping for it to get better and it never did. I swear it was written and directed by multiple teams who never communicated with each other. If I may quote Otome, "Fukakai desu."
Posted by: Toren at April 08, 2008 01:45 PM (/uCid)
Just now looking at the description of that one, seems like it's pretty much by the numbers. You got your magical girls, your harem, your wimpy guy, your lots of gorgeous girls, your unreasonably powerful student council. Is there anything new in it? I'd bet not.
Asuka also causes him to get into a lot of trouble with the powerful student council leadership, as they are at open war with Asuka and her five friends, a group of super amazon warriors called the Koi Koi Seven.
I just bet I can buess who the seventh person of the "Koi Koi Seven" is going to be.
I've been curious about the name of the Kamidake, a ship which figures pretty highly in the middle section of Tenchi Muyo: GXP. Is that the "kami" we all know and love that means "god"? Does the name really mean anything at all?
Without seeing it written in Japanese, there's no hope of figuring that out. But today I noticed that the title of ep 12 is translated as "Kamidake seriously damaged":
So, ta-da! Here it is: 守蛇怪大破 kamidake taiha
大破 Taiha means "serious damage". The rest of it, 守蛇怪, is the ship name, and no, 神kami meaning "god" isn't part of it.
The Kamidake is a "decoy ship", a purpose-built warship which is designed to look like a cargo carrier. Its mission is to go out and wander around in hopes of enticing pirate attack. That's because it's much armed and defended than pirate ships are, and in a fight even against a group of them it has every expectation of winning.
So its mission is fundamentally sneaky. I wonder if that's the implication of the name? "Mysterious snake who protects." Maybe.
Or maybe they created it the way they create a lot of names, by stringing together obscure readings of relatively obscure kanji used phonetically just to be confusing.
In the 17th episode of Tenchi Muyo: GXP, Amane, Kiriko, and Ryoko spend a day working in a grocery store, for reasons not worth going into. They also stand in front of the store at one point and greet customers. Suddenly I jerked awake and thought, what in hell are they saying? Sounded to me like irasshai masen. Which would mean, "I'm trying to be polite here, but you ain't welcome." Curious thing to say to a potential customer.
A quick bit of dipping into the dictionary cleared me up. They're saying irasshaimase which is a stock phrase used at stores, and it's a stylized way of saying "Welcome". It doesn't mean "welcome, NOT!"